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Richard Haselgrove

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Message 49183 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 14:52:55 UTC - in response to Message 49182.  

And don't forget people who run multiple projects on a single machine: credit freezes can lead to inequitable CPU time distribution (often leading to a user having to suspend/activate on a task-by-task basis). Fortunately CPDN is not having that problem right now.

1) Credit is being awarded here at the moment - it's just not being exported to the aggregation sites.

2) CPU time isn't distributed according to credit. There was a pipe-dream along those lines, which made it as far as a proposal (see ClientSchedOctTen), but they found it was too difficult in the end.

"Hence we will use a surrogate called estimated credit, maintained by the client."
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Belfry

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Message 49184 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 15:30:13 UTC - in response to Message 49183.  

1) I know.
2) It undoubtedly has some effect. When CPDN credits freeze for an extended period (like last August/September) I have to suspend CPDN tasks to get any WCG tasks done. Maybe disabling BOINC network activity for the entire credit freeze period would work, but it's impractical for several reasons (10-day work limit among them).

It has happened many times over the past five years or so. I also know of it happening to another member of my team. If you don't believe me, join WCG with a CPDN machine and assign it 25%. Then wait for the next CPDN credit freeze.

Before all the pure science people jump all over me, let me make clear: I'd prefer BOINC abandon credits altogether if it would mean running without user intervention.
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Werinbert

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Message 49185 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 19:11:09 UTC

As someone looking for milestones I kind of want the date sent to the external stats sites...

after some quick calculations I realized that my next big milestone is about 3 years away at current effort......

...I think I can wait until the next update.
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Profile Randi
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Message 49186 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 20:45:22 UTC - in response to Message 49184.  
Last modified: 21 May 2014, 20:48:00 UTC

My system is currently running:
2 CPDN tasks,
1 WCG task, and
1 yoyo task.

My resources for those projects are:
CPDN 42%
WCG 10%
yoyo 6%

The problem with exporting credits is really hurting our team rankings (the Old Weather team is from a Zooniverse weather data transcribing project, but we will keep crunching.
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BarryAZ

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Message 49187 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 20:47:13 UTC - in response to Message 49185.  

Yes, I'm a long time partisicpant, over 8 years,


And yes, I've seen site update freezes in the past -- but never in my 8+ years here were they over a month or so. Ww're working on 3 months and counting here.

There is no sense of urgency here regarding this -- fair enough. Again, I'm not cancelling participation on systems, I'm just not renewing when a system issue results in a full rebuild, or a start from scratch with BOINC. I've never simply cancelled running Climate because to project issues (running or reporting). When it has been an issue of running, I shift to those other projects I have running so as not the force failed updates -- I'd note that in the past, this approach has been recommended as appropriate by..... Climate admins.

Climate has always been one of my secondary projects, it runs, with the long workunits and trickle updates so I don't need to pay that much attention to it. There was a time I had it running on 6 or more systems. There was a time I was seeing 3K to 4K credits a day, at this point it is down to 1/10 of that.

As to running multiple projects at the same time, originally that was a core concept for BOINC -- still is. I understand folks who only want to run a single project, I don't understand why some folks only running a single project don't understand why folks run multiple projects though. <smile>.

As someone looking for milestones I kind of want the date sent to the external stats sites...

after some quick calculations I realized that my next big milestone is about 3 years away at current effort......

...I think I can wait until the next update.


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Les Bayliss
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Message 49188 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 20:54:55 UTC

One of the problems is that the moderators have be going on about credits to the project people for so long, that they don't talk to us much now.

And they don't have the time to sit around reading through the messages on this board.

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TPCBF

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Message 49189 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 21:48:45 UTC - in response to Message 49179.  

We've been through these priority hassles before and it always sorted out eventually. It will surely do so in this case -- though obviously not on a time scale to suit everyone.

Hang in there...
I added CPDN to the mix of projects I have CPUs working on as I thought it would be a worthy task. Credits by them self is not that much my concern but any major deviation from the average credits per day usually indicates that there is a problem with a certain project. And when a project like CPDN isn't taking care of a simple task like keeping the stats for external stats sites up to date, I start to wonder how well managed the project overall is and if any of the time and resources invested are worth the effort...

Ralf
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Les Bayliss
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Message 49190 - Posted: 21 May 2014, 21:52:36 UTC - in response to Message 49189.  

Simple task on other projects, long complicated process here.

As talked about lots of times, possibly also in this thread.

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Profile Dave Jackson
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Message 49196 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 8:49:36 UTC
Last modified: 22 May 2014, 8:51:42 UTC

Things are much simpler for me I can see. - I have never looked at any of the external sites. The only times I go to other projects is when CPDN is out of work.

Edit: Which I can see is not far off unless more work is released. Still I have a couple of weeks worth in the queue.
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Message 49200 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 16:43:58 UTC

One downside of not bothering to export stats is that the project appears to be dead from the outside.

The project is shown as down here: http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?page=boinc_status

Also flatlined here: http://stats.free-dc.org/stats.php?page=proj&proj=bcpdn





Doesn't exactly encourage anyone to join or to think about starting crunching the project again.

I would suggest that the volunteers deserve better than "we're too busy". I can't believe that this is a fix that's going to take months to fix. I'll wager that someone with a modicum of knowledge of the back end software could fix the relevant config file or start the relevant daemon in minutes :)




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BarryAZ

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Message 49201 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 18:30:34 UTC - in response to Message 49188.  

Les, yes, that seems fairly apparent. Though to tell the truth, the disconnect between the moderators and the project folks is not really a new thing. While it varies in degree over time, I've observed that over the years.

As to the credit update issue -- the project folks have (based on a three month non-resolution) pretty much placed it specifically on an 'ignore' mode whenever the moderators should be so bold so as to remind the project folks that this is actually an issue and one which (in my view) will have implications for the project, should the project folks seek for client processing power.

The thing is, one of the other situations for this project is that on the resource side, the need for additional processing power has not been an issue -- more user cpu's than work has been an ongoing condition. That might add somewhat to the seemingly blase response to pleas from moderators regarding the credit update problem.

In any event, it is difficult to know exactly what sort of end user drop off there has been due to the lack of credit updating in a general sense, because.... there hasn't been any credit updating for three months.

It is possible that folks back at the project side may be seeing this -- hard to tell, as back and forth communication with the moderators such as yourself, takes time -- and it is fairly apparently that is a limited resource.

As I noted, there are plenty of other BOINC projects that actually support credit update sites, and many of them are quite worthy, so it isn't as if Climate has a captive market for processing time.



One of the problems is that the moderators have be going on about credits to the project people for so long, that they don't talk to us much now.

And they don't have the time to sit around reading through the messages on this board.


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Profile Nflight

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Message 49202 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 18:39:57 UTC

Lets take a look at what the rest of the world sees, My page link is here: http://climateapps2.oerc.ox.ac.uk/cpdnboinc/show_user.php?userid=13183 scroll down until you see climateprediction.net - notice the figure it's not the same as the top one!

Just a reminder this is your page, your project. I understand Oxford University graduate students are busy all the time, maybe we should ask Cambridge University undergraduate students to get working on this problem. We could see results in hours not months...
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Profile GrimmReaperSound
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Message 49203 - Posted: 22 May 2014, 21:30:00 UTC

(to be read out loud with a deep TV advert type voice)

May 22nd 2014, the end of session for most undergrads.
Will some they hang around and sort this out?
Will the grad students fix this during the summer?
Will the project people read the forums and realize they have a problem?
Will the admins catch a break long enough to fix this problem?

Stay tuned for ongoing turmoils at CPDN and catch all new episodes starting next fall. ;)
Michel
-----------------------------------------------
Always keep an open mind, even Einstein could not
explain how the universe worked,...
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Coleslaw
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Message 49224 - Posted: 28 May 2014, 2:09:21 UTC

I just wanted to take a moment to point out that this project is in danger of being removed from the DC-Vault. www.dc-vault.com. The reason for removal is that it violates one of the few rules to be included in the ongoing challenge.

The project must:

be active
accept new members and teams immediately upon registration
have parsable team stats
have team stats that are updated regularly
provide a client program which runs on a local PC

The project must not:

be a keylogger or mouseclick counter
have a maximum number of teams or members or exclude any country


Since CPDN has seen work unit supply issue lately, it may not matter to the admins. I just wanted to give fair warning in case it mattered to them. This also allows teams whom make their contributions based on the vault to have another place to see the reasoning for the change as well.
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Les Bayliss
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Message 49225 - Posted: 28 May 2014, 5:05:52 UTC - in response to Message 49224.  

I doubt that the admins have even heard about this vault thingy. The project exists to get research data for climate physicists, not to indulge in games with credits.
... the place you can refer others to and brag about how devilishly high ranked your team is ...

Anyway, something may happen soon.

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Eirik Redd

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Message 49227 - Posted: 28 May 2014, 8:28:25 UTC

I'm thinking that posting credit updates to the aggregator sites might be a plus.
Or maybe not - the long-running models here at CPDN don't fit the "credit accumulator" model of why people contribute.
Hell, I've got 2 mil probablylion whatever "stones,credits, whatever" not yet reported to the aggregator sites.
But, probably, it might help the project to update the stats.
Me, I don't care.
BUT IT IS NOT much work to upload the stats -
Me got no clue --
Maybe an update on what the site is doing?

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Profile Dave Jackson
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Message 49228 - Posted: 28 May 2014, 10:40:47 UTC

Just looked at www.dc-vault.com and can't see the slightest reason to go back to it. The stats available from this site give me all the information I need and more.
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Finrond

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Message 49230 - Posted: 28 May 2014, 14:21:08 UTC

Hey stats updated on boincstats!
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Profile ritterm
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Message 49231 - Posted: 28 May 2014, 14:39:40 UTC - in response to Message 49230.  
Last modified: 28 May 2014, 14:41:11 UTC

Finrond wrote:
Hey stats updated on boincstats!

You beat me to it, Finrond! I'm sure it was the spectre of getting dropped from DC-Vault that got things moving along... ;-)
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loderunner

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Message 49232 - Posted: 28 May 2014, 15:55:54 UTC - in response to Message 49225.  

Very strange answer for a forum moderator

In your arrogant oppinion, this project seem to be the wrong place for people participating in distributet computing, donating their time, cpu's, and energy costs.

Is this right?

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