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First phase of migration of BBC/CCE to cpdn and standard version of boinc

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Les Bayliss
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Message 26418 - Posted: 28 Jan 2007, 15:17:36 UTC

H12702

I wrote some notes about this and posted them here.
Then I wrote a short note about how to find them, and posted them on just about all of the different sections of the BBC boards.
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Message 26419 - Posted: 28 Jan 2007, 19:12:38 UTC - in response to Message 26407.  


Just to second MM\'s post. I\'m also a \"newbie\". Chrissy
[/quote]

If you\'ve got this far you can\'t be fairly described as a Newbie. You might even be veering dangerously close to techie-hood!

My point about newbies was that, BBC with it\'s implicit \"no one else has has ever done anything like this before\" stance and keeping everyone in the dark about the tradition that went before, hasn\'t exactly made it easy for people to keep going.

The vast majority haven\'t kept going & won\'t survive to become seasoned Boincers: but for those that have, welcome to the club.
[/quote]

Hi Mega ( what else can I call you - sounds a bit risque..)

Just to put the record straight my entire team and most of the BBC
board readers will tell you I am the eipitomy of \"untechy\" - how I ever finished a model is just pure luck:) Even got some into the 60\'s and 70\'s before crashing:(

Agree with you that BBC has put this all in the limelight and that the credit
is with the trailblazers - BOINC et al. Maybe they need to up their profile and do a bit more PR for the cause.

What motivated me to start was my overriding concern for those on the planet
who have no voice at all - the mammals, reptiles et al who have done nothing
to cause this situation. I realise also that many people are in the same position. If this sounds simplistic it\'s a post and I\'m not big on diatribes.

Look forward to crunching with \"The Greenies\" in CPDN

GO GREENIES GO!!!

Chrissy.. I come in peace from BBC CCE :)






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Message 26423 - Posted: 28 Jan 2007, 19:44:56 UTC
Last modified: 28 Jan 2007, 19:45:16 UTC

Totally agree, Chrissy, I\'m no \"techie\" either - not only do I remember very well what it felt like to ask a question and not understand the reply but also it still happens to me! The only difference now is that I\'m no longer too embarrassed to ask for a simpler answer!
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Message 26425 - Posted: 28 Jan 2007, 19:51:54 UTC - in response to Message 26423.  

Totally agree, Chrissy, I\'m no \"techie\" either - not only do I remember very well what it felt like to ask a question and not understand the reply but also it still happens to me! The only difference now is that I\'m no longer too embarrassed to ask for a simpler answer!


Absolutely MM.. think we\'re both in the same little
DC canoe:)

Chrissy





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Message 26461 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 16:59:22 UTC - in response to Message 26357.  

I got one short question about all the creds: What will happen to UniCourse / CPDN classic creds that are earned AFTER the recent calculation of the added BOINC creds? Will they be added to the CPDN overall creds as well or was that a one time merge between Classic and BOINC?


Just to bring this up again, \'cause I think it was lost in the conversation.

:-)
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Message 26462 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 17:29:42 UTC - in response to Message 26461.  

I got one short question about all the creds: What will happen to UniCourse / CPDN classic creds that are earned AFTER the recent calculation of the added BOINC creds? Will they be added to the CPDN overall creds as well or was that a one time merge between Classic and BOINC?


Just to bring this up again, \'cause I think it was lost in the conversation.

:-)

I respect the decision to give the pioneers of the pre-Boinc era a recognition in the chosen form of granting credits for work done.

But to give them away for those who still refuse to go Boinc and do futile CPU-heating (to quote Carl: we aren\'t going to use the results from any classic) will be far over the top.

I still would like a permanent beta better then the current situation, and I personally would have liked a separate classic count as well, but this two decisions are at least understandable and I can quite easily live with it. Inclusion of energy waste does not sound in any way reasonable.
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Message 26465 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 19:37:59 UTC - in response to Message 26462.  

But to give them away for those who still refuse to go Boinc and do futile CPU-heating (to quote Carl: we aren\'t going to use the results from any classic) will be far over the top.


What?????? !!!!! CPDN is encouraging people to waste CPU time crunching crap that will never be used? I want to say I can\'t believe it but after seeing some of the blatant stupidity going on at some projects I can believe just about anything now.

If this is true then stop it NOW!!!!! If you don\'t then I\'ll finish crunching the model I have, it\'s at 93%. The other one I have at 60% will get flushed because I don\'t trust the judgement of any project stoopid enough to hand out credits for nothing. If it\'s true then it\'s highly likely ALL of my work here was designed by morons and that ALL efforts here are a total waste of time.


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Message 26466 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 19:42:20 UTC - in response to Message 26465.  

But to give them away for those who still refuse to go Boinc and do futile CPU-heating (to quote Carl: we aren\'t going to use the results from any classic) will be far over the top.


What?????? !!!!! CPDN is encouraging people to waste CPU time crunching crap that will never be used?


Relax, it\'s used for educational purposes, and as such probably valid. If you read the whole quote (somewhere down in the history of this thread or here) you\'ll see this.
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Message 26467 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 20:07:43 UTC - in response to Message 26466.  

Relax, it\'s used for educational purposes, and as such probably valid. If you read the whole quote (somewhere down in the history of this thread or here) you\'ll see this.


Huh? Now it\'s probably valid? I don\'t get it.

Also, why do you say \"those who refuse to go BOINC\"? It sounds to me like a lot of people who are NOT in the course are also running classic. Please explain.

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Message 26469 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 20:39:00 UTC - in response to Message 26467.  

Relax, it\'s used for educational purposes, and as such probably valid. If you read the whole quote (somewhere down in the history of this thread or here) you\'ll see this.


Huh? Now it\'s probably valid? I don\'t get it.

Also, why do you say \"those who refuse to go BOINC\"? It sounds to me like a lot of people who are NOT in the course are also running classic. Please explain.

Classic was there first, they did the pioneer work here, and it\'s imho OK to recognise that, and be it with credit conversion.
Some time in the past classic became obsolete for scientific purposes, but is still alive for educational use.
CPDN meanwhile has made the step to boinc, first parallel, with both results valid, now only Boinc is valid.

Some crunchers seem to be change resistant, and as much as I like to grant recognition to the pioneers, I don\'t want the stats be contaminated with futile energy waste.
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Message 26470 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 20:45:00 UTC
Last modified: 31 Jan 2007, 20:46:47 UTC

Classic models were/are \"slab\" models, used to find valid areas of parameter values that could be used for the 2nd phase of the project, called Experiment 2 in the Climate science page here.

As it was, it was decided during the alpha/beta testing in 2005, that experiments 2 and 3 would be combined into a single 160 year model, now called the Transient Coupled Models, or TCMs.

It was posted sometime in mid 2004, that ALL future models would be BOINC based.
And since mid 2005, it\'s been posted many times that slab models were no longer needed for the main project. And they were removed from the data pool in late 2005.

It\'s also been said that both the slab models and the \"classic\" programs would continue, but should only be used for the Open University course on Climate Modelling, as the people running it wanted a guarantee that a program and models would be available that wouldn\'t change for the duration of the courses.

Most of this was on the php boards, which is where feedback from the core team is posted.

As for \"encouraging\" people to crunch classic, you\'re way out of date.
It\'s being discouraged as much as possible. Even the pages relating to classic have been hidden as much as possible to prevent the casual visitor from finding them.
And I and others have been telling people for at least a year that the slab models are now obsolete, both on the php board and here.

You can rant all you like, but the fact that some people are still running these models is their problem. And yours.
We can only tell people not to run them if they post here so that we can find them.

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Message 26471 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 20:47:01 UTC
Last modified: 31 Jan 2007, 20:49:03 UTC

Hi everybody

The Open University runs a climatology course which uses a Classic model. Students can either download and crunch the model or, if their computer isn\'t capable of that, get the model on disk. This model is of course totally valid from the point of view of the course but adds nothing to the science at Oxford Uni where as far as I know the researchers have done what they wanted with the classic models and have moved on. The course will not move to boinc-based models because a)the 160-year model is far too long for the short course b) not everyone doing the course has 1.6GHz CPU and 512Mb RAM.

There are still as far as I can see from the cpdn front page over 1000 machines trickling classic models.

http://www.climateprediction.net/index.php

Maybe some of these are people doing the course, but some must be members like this

http://www.climateprediction.net/board/viewtopic.php?p=57291&highlight=#57291

who for whatever reason didn\'t migrate to boinc at the proper time and are now stuck in a time-warp. You\'ll see the advice we all give there - MIGRATE! I expect there are still a few Classic crunchers who never visit the forums and don\'t know they\'re wasting time and electricity.

Carl can\'t cut off/disable Classic downloads because of the Open Uni course which will be running until at least the end of 2007.

Nobody at cpdn is encouraging time-wasting or unnecessary crunching.

I think I\'ll post a News announcement about this in the hope that a few more of these people will see it.

(Les beat me to it.)
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Message 26472 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 21:08:10 UTC
Last modified: 31 Jan 2007, 21:09:19 UTC

I\'m pretty sure that there are remote machines out there that just haven\'t been accessed in a long time, still running classic. About 3 years ago I set up Folding@Home on a friend\'s machine (he didn\'t and doesn\'t know) and ever since then, it has been sending in results - if it was CPDN Classic, it would be the same. I haven\'t seen that PC ever since.

But exactly because of these forgotten PCs AND the UniCourse people I asked if the cred transformation from classic to BOINC was a one time only thing or will be repeated in the future!

And btw, a pretty easy way would be to change the server address for CPDN classic. In that way, only active crunchers and UniCourse folks would attach to that new address, the forgotten PC would just run out of work and lay dormant.

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Message 26474 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 21:25:03 UTC - in response to Message 26471.  

Nobody at cpdn is encouraging time-wasting or unnecessary crunching.

I think I\'ll post a News announcement about this in the hope that a few more of these people will see it.

(Les beat me to it.)


Well, I\'m not crunching Classic, my models are the newer coupled models. And they will both be completed.

I\'m still very concerned over the possible waste occurring. I see the need for the school to stay with a short model and a format that won\'t change but there should be a password or some mechanism that prevents people who are not in the course from getting Classic models.

I know priorities change and we need to spend more of our work hours on the top priorities but it\'s a bad manager who ignores all other tasks and works only on the highest priority item. The Classic job started and ran to the limit of it\'s usefulness in the general population. Now it\'s time to stop it properly and/or restrict it to those few who need it. Otherwise it\'s a piece of sloppy work, an ongoing embarassment and the cause of needless rants like mine and Saenger\'s.

Sorry, posts and notices are not enough to get the attention of a lot of people. That\'s been proven over and over and over. The info is buried too deep and obscured by too much other noise. But there must be a way to stop the waste with a password or something. Please devote some time to it.


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Message 26475 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 21:32:55 UTC
Last modified: 31 Jan 2007, 21:33:42 UTC

I\'ve made announcement posts about it on this forum and the php. I\'ll also contact one of the programmers in Oxford with a link to this thread.
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Message 26476 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 21:35:22 UTC
Last modified: 31 Jan 2007, 21:36:18 UTC

Christian

1) The server address CAN\'T be changed, for the same reason that the program and models MUST remain the same: the OU course.
2) Setting up models on peoples machines without permnission is illegal.
This is made quite clear in the license agreement. And was part of the reason why SETI went to BOINC; there were too many people looking for ways to cheat.

As for machines that haven\'t been accessed for a long time, tell us about.
Late last year I found a computer that was still running BOINC 4.13, a notoriously buggy version, Every day for 9 months it had downloaded 2 models and crashed them straight away. Then another moderator found a second doing the same. After which I found one still using 4.05, and crashing 2 models a day.
And this was/is in spite of a version limit being placed on the server.

As for credits for people still running classic models, I don\'t think that too many people care. Either these people haven\'t moved to BOINC, in which case there isn\'t an account here to which credits can be transferred, or they HAVE moved here, and their credits have already been transferred.

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Message 26477 - Posted: 31 Jan 2007, 22:16:37 UTC - in response to Message 26476.  

Christian

1) The server address CAN\'T be changed, for the same reason that the program and models MUST remain the same: the OU course.
2) Setting up models on peoples machines without permnission is illegal.
This is made quite clear in the license agreement. And was part of the reason why SETI went to BOINC; there were too many people looking for ways to cheat.


1: Hm, ok, but I don\'t get it. I mean, is the address set in stone? If you told the people who do the uni course and their instructors to just a different address to attach to. Or would that violate some contract/agreement about the uni courses? Sorry, but to me it sounds so bureaucratic, if you know what I mean. :-)

2: Well you know, back then he was my sister\'s boyfriend and I was in charge of keeping his gaming rig working ... so that was \"my payment\" for my work. But yes, I get the point about the illegal stuff, although I wouldn\'t call that cheating, just \"progressive workforce acquisition\" ;-)
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Message 26481 - Posted: 1 Feb 2007, 2:26:10 UTC - in response to Message 26477.  

... I get the point about the illegal stuff, although I wouldn\'t call that cheating, just \"progressive workforce acquisition\" ;-)


You\'ll go far in a laissez-faire (predatory) capitalist environment, methinks.
What is it about cheating, theft, and violating the CPDN license agreement under which we all run these Models, that you don\'t understand?

"We have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo
Greetings from coastal Washington state, the scenic US Pacific Northwest.
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Message 26482 - Posted: 1 Feb 2007, 2:35:16 UTC - in response to Message 26477.  

... \"progressive workforce acquisition\" ;-)


Lol! OK, I see how things can get out of hand and how waste can accumulate. I suggest it\'s time for a little \"progressive workforce termination and waste reduction\". If the programmers are this good at signing people up and keeping them fed with models then they most certainly have enough smarts to figure a way to identify and detach the long forgotten systems. It\'s not a matter of talent, it\'s just a matter of deciding the job is a priority and doing it.

\'Nuff said, I\'ll shut up now.

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Message 26484 - Posted: 1 Feb 2007, 8:28:07 UTC - in response to Message 26481.  


You\'ll go far in a laissez-faire (predatory) capitalist environment, methinks.
What is it about cheating, theft, and violating the CPDN license agreement under which we all run these Models, that you don\'t understand?


I won\'t go into a argument with you here, but you should keep in mind that I never said I ran a CPDN model on somebody else\'s PC, I talked about Folding@Home. x_x
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