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First phase of migration of BBC/CCE to cpdn and standard version of boinc

First phase of migration of BBC/CCE to cpdn and standard version of boinc

Message boards : Number crunching : First phase of migration of BBC/CCE to cpdn and standard version of boinc
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Les Bayliss
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Message 26275 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 21:25:04 UTC
Last modified: 22 Jan 2007, 21:25:31 UTC

But nothing is lost. It\'s all there in the stats pages. They will always be the ones who \"won\" BBC, the credits will still be in the BOINC combined, as usual for 2 distinct projects (or a project and it\'s permanent beta).

1) The BBC people are not familiar with how things are done outside of their isolated world, in spite of the mods constantly explaining.
And we are still having problems explaining to them how to attach to a second project.

2) The only thing originally in the shout box was the complaints from people.
This is what I passed on. And Carl then changed things back. And posted this in both the shout box and in his last 3 posts in this thread.

3) The changes were never intended to be reflected out into the outside world via the export stats.
It took several attempts, but Carl got there in the end.
As he has said in his posts mentioned here.
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Message 26278 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 21:46:43 UTC
Last modified: 22 Jan 2007, 21:48:22 UTC

So, did I get this right:

1. some beta crunching projects were integrated in the main project today creditwise.

2. classic crunching was converted to credits as well today and added

3. BBC ans SAP are not in the XML and will stay distinct projects in the future

This will still mess up the stats for this day, but I can live with it. It would have been fine though if it would have been communicated a bit around the boards, and on the main stats sites.

But I have one question regarding the inclusion of the betas: Why don\'t you create a permanent beta for the more adventuresome, like SETIbeta, Ralph, ABCbeta and Pirates? It would save you the work of merging them from time to time.
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Message 26279 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 21:49:38 UTC - in response to Message 26278.  

But I have one question regarding the inclusion of the betas: Why don\'t you create a permanent beta for the more adventuresome, like Seti, Rosetta, ABC, LHC and Pirates? It would save you the work of merging them from time to time.


Not neeeded anymore WCG checked in some new code to the server code to enable a project to run BETA tests from the main project URL, a user selects a option to participate in BETA and then the server sends any BETA work to them

But its the projects choice at the end of the day
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Message 26281 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 22:12:27 UTC - in response to Message 26279.  

But I have one question regarding the inclusion of the betas: Why don\'t you create a permanent beta for the more adventuresome, like Seti, Rosetta, ABC, LHC and Pirates? It would save you the work of merging them from time to time.


Not neeeded anymore WCG checked in some new code to the server code to enable a project to run BETA tests from the main project URL, a user selects a option to participate in BETA and then the server sends any BETA work to them

But its the projects choice at the end of the day

And I have tried and failed to convince ABC to use that...
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Message 26282 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 22:12:41 UTC

We DO have a permanent beta. It\'s even got \"Climateprediction.net Beta\" at the top of the page.
It\'s just that everyone and his dog are treating it like just another public project and telling everyone else how to find it.

Thanks for that info on the new code, Halifax--lad. I\'ll pass it along to \"the gang\", so that we can discuss / lobby about it for when the change comes through.
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Message 26283 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 22:25:33 UTC - in response to Message 26278.  

...
But I have one question regarding the inclusion of the betas: Why don\'t you create a permanent beta for the more adventuresome, like SETIbeta, Ralph, ABCbeta and Pirates? It would save you the work of merging them from time to time.
...


I\'ve always liked the permanent beta idea. However the project has always historically created beta projects for a specific purpose and then wiped them afterwards. The problem is that given that the work units run for months, they\'re not really suitable for \'undirected\' testing.

Incidentally the credit-merging idea has been publically discussed for months on the BBC/CCE forums where it was popular, but as far as I can recall not publically elsewhere.

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Message 26284 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 22:30:56 UTC - in response to Message 26283.  
Last modified: 22 Jan 2007, 22:34:28 UTC

I\'ve always liked the permanent beta idea. However the project has always historically created beta projects for a specific purpose and then wiped them afterwards. The problem is that given that the work units run for months, they\'re not really suitable for \'undirected\' testing.


But this could easily been restricted by an invitation code or such. I know of at least 2 such projects, the one publicised yet as /beta and one called HADSM or such. I never participated with my lonely cruncher though ;)

Incidentally the credit-merging idea has been publically discussed for months on the BBC/CCE forums where it was popular, but as far as I can recall not publically elsewhere.

But as it mainly effects this project, it should have been discussed here as well. I think this would have been a duty of the project team.
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Message 26287 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 23:06:33 UTC

The BBC people are not familiar with how things are done outside of their isolated world, in spite of the mods constantly explaining.
And we are still having problems explaining to them how to attach to a second project.

I agree with this, having crunched since the start only on the BBC I saw how things were going to come to and end in the new year and decided to move one of my computers over to this side last November.
The other crunchers seem reluctant to dip their too into the water and make the move and just complain about it. A lot of them never visit the boards and only now finding out about it when they can not get new models be come perplexed and not sure what to do.
Part of the trouble is the BBC way made it easy to download and changing to the BOINC way is strange. I myself had a little trouble especially the with CPID. And that was a thing completely new to me and did not no it existed.
A lot of BBCer’s are unaware of the existence of BOINCStats although I was aware of them. So they think they going to lose all of their credits.
So Its good on people like Carl and the mods trying to make it easier for them but its going to be an up hill struggle.
Dave


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Message 26289 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 23:13:32 UTC - in response to Message 26269.  
Last modified: 22 Jan 2007, 23:29:28 UTC

Hi,

Sanger

The discussion is in the hidden area used by the mods, admins, and project staff.


But the relevant people (Willy, Zain, Neil,...) were included in this discussion, or was it done solely in some ivory tower?

Edit:
And why for f*** sake was the community excluded?


I wasn\'t consulted about the stats merger - someone posted on my forums about it. At the end of the day, myself and other stats sites are at the mercy of the BOINC developers. If they make a change, then we have to adapt our code to workaround/incorporate the modifications.

I personally like the fact that BOINC provides the ability for third parties like myself to provide services to the BOINC community. It would however, be handy if we could be informed of changes before they take place to aid a smooth transition.

Just my 5 cents ;-)

Edit: I have since been informed there is a BOINC stats e-mail list, so I have subscribed to this to hopefully learn about future XML file modifications sooner!

Neil.
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Message 26291 - Posted: 22 Jan 2007, 23:38:08 UTC

I agree with Niel
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Message 26293 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 1:10:13 UTC

I just spotted this in the Boincstats shoutbox:

\"[BOINCstats] Willy: We are restoring yesterdays stats and will rerun the daily update with CPDN XML files from yesterday, to prevent the stats mess up. We will keep using these old files until credit on CPDN is restored to normal.
2007-01-22 21:01:04\"

If I understand this right -and hopefully I don\'t- it means that CPDN stats will not be updated by BOINCStats until the CPDN Classic credit is removed. Yikes!

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Message 26294 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 3:18:37 UTC

From a note on users Accounts page:
NB: Classic, Spinup, and Beta Test credits are factored in the above total credit
Which is refering to the credits for this site.
They\'ve always been in the \'local\' credits, and will remain so.

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Message 26295 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 3:21:37 UTC
Last modified: 23 Jan 2007, 3:22:17 UTC

Note:

This thread is supposed to be about moving BBC people and their credits/stats to cpdn.
If anyone wants to continue discussing the recent problems with the credits, please start another thread specific to that subject.

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Message 26300 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 5:30:02 UTC - in response to Message 26295.  

Note:

This thread is supposed to be about moving BBC people and their credits/stats to cpdn.
If anyone wants to continue discussing the recent problems with the credits, please start another thread specific to that subject.


Then why did you make this post?

The whole discussion of this very sensitive and important topic by those who had the duty to inform us is in this thread, so they decided it\'s the right thread. If they don\'t want it here, they should start the thread they should have started weeks ago.

The project chose to ignore the public on this discussion, all of it is in here, even by the project staff, so this definitely is the right thread for this discussion.
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Message 26302 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 6:08:05 UTC - in response to Message 26293.  
Last modified: 23 Jan 2007, 6:10:04 UTC

If I understand this right -and hopefully I don\'t- it means that CPDN stats will not be updated by BOINCStats until the CPDN Classic credit is removed. Yikes!


The decision to rerun the daily update was made by several people behind BOINCstats, we felt it was better to rerun instead of having loads of crunchers having negative credit the next day.

As I understood it, Carl included all projects credits into CPDN and already exported XML files with this credit in it. This one was picked up by BOINCstats yesterday I think.

The next export should only have CPDN + Classic + Spinup in it, this one I will use again.

Anybody knows how much credit there is in Classic + Spinup?
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Message 26303 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 7:18:40 UTC - in response to Message 26302.  

Anybody knows how much credit there is in Classic + Spinup?

I guess like every other project, it varies by user. I have personally never run a CPDN Classic unit, and I\'m pretty sure I\'ve never run a Spinup unit (though I\'d have to check). Others probably have tens of thousands of credits in each of the CPDN experiments. *shrug*

Might it be possible to break down the credit by sub-project in the XML?
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Message 26305 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 7:57:25 UTC - in response to Message 26302.  
Last modified: 23 Jan 2007, 8:09:57 UTC


The next export should only have CPDN + Classic + Spinup in it, this one I will use again.

Anybody knows how much credit there is in Classic + Spinup?


There was an earlier export on the 22nd which had the BBC figures added in. As far as I can tell the one at the time of the daily update WAS just CPDN + Classic + Spinup. The stats surged a bit (about 4% for TSBT) but not by the huge amount they did when BBC credit was being double counted.


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Message 26314 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 11:03:14 UTC - in response to Message 26303.  

the current xml stats on this server are corrected, so when the various external stats site pick them up, things should be back to normal (by \"normal\" I mean that classic & spinup credit will be added in, and BBC & Seasonal credit will not be in but of course tracked by their particular sites).
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Message 26319 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 16:25:38 UTC
Last modified: 23 Jan 2007, 16:26:06 UTC

Carl, you wrote in the other forum:
The \"classic CPDN\" should only be run by Open U students on the climate course, it is really a waste of CPU & electrical power and we aren\'t going to use the results from any classic expts other than what we already have (since it is just repeating the same 5000 workunits). I strongly urge you to move to a CPDN under BOINC, or if that doesn\'t work for some reason, look into using your computing power on another BOINC project.

So you say they are next to worthless, why are they included then?
Where was this decision discussed?
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Message 26322 - Posted: 23 Jan 2007, 18:57:55 UTC

Carl wrote about current \"classic\" activity (school activity) not what we did in pre-boinc days. Like the Sulphur Cycle and Spinup Runs, the pre-Sulphur Cycle \"Classic\" work did feed into what we\'re doing now. (And, in addition, we had a THC (Thermohaline Circulation) sub-Project in \"Classic\" days.) \'Tis all important stuff.

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